Fighting back for what is right: Occupy Bay street is an online fight

After message action, go to
Fwd: RE: Dear E—-:
From:
“Joseph & Sari Grove”
To:
“E—- R——-”
Bcc:
grove@sent.com
Date:
Tue, 1 Nov 2011 9:53 PM (less than a minute ago)
View as text – Show Raw MessageShow full header
Hi E—–,

I sent a copy to myself, so I had a copy…here’s my letter…Sorry it is so long…Brevity is not my strong point…

Sari

p.s. I attached two pages, a letter from Michael Brunette at Td Insurance…(yes, the FCAC Federal agency said this was a Td bank matter, but I have been thrown back & forth between banking & insurance as they own Td Insurance as well…So I have spoken to both Td bank ombudspeople & Td Insurance ombudspeople…The Td Insurance one, a Sidney Nightingale said this was for TD Bank ombudsman, a Mr. Paul Huyer…Just more confusion to obfuscate…It has been a farce of sorts…No idea who the person was who sold me this thing, nor a phone number…No phone numbers on the letters from Td Insurance, the first was from an Indra Satram, a manager at Td Insurance…) Contact has been rude to sparse- I waited a month after Indra Satram said she was writing a letter, called finally & was told by an Alicia Linton-Francis “sorry, she forgot”…I am sure the delay was intentional as the Nov. 1st, 2011 deadline meant that OBSI would no longer be able to regulate…More about that down the page…

Joseph & Sari Grove
306-15 McMurrich street
Toronto, Ontario
M5R 3M6
Canada
416-924-9725
http://www.grovecanada.ca
grove@sent.com

—– Original message —–
From: “Joseph & Sari Grove”
To: grove@sent.com
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:29:42 -0400
Subject: RE: Dear E—-:

Dear E—-,

Thank you for your kind offer…It is more than kind, it is quite generous considering how much time my husband & I have already put into this…It is almost three months of trying now at this moment…

The Balance Protection Insurance was charged on my Td Visa card… The number of that account is 4—- —- —- …The name on that account is my maiden name which is M— S— L—- S—-…(I go by Mrs. Sari Grove on my websites & blogs & on my artwork, but kept my financials in my maiden name so collectors couldn’t use my artist name to access my banking stuff…)(I am a self-employed visual artist, as is my husband, Joseph Grove)…

Some of the facts I have had to construe from TD…I did not know I had balance protection insurance when my husband discovered an unauthorized charge on my credit card statement around August 11, 2011, this year…My husband has been scrutinizing my banking, our banking info, for a long time, because I am a spender & he is a saver, & we had decided a long time ago that he was better at seeing bad charges or catching things…

As it happens, I found out that there was a phone record (apparently for I have not heard it), where I said yes to this insurance…The phone record, I am told, is from 2004…

I was also told that we were sent something in writing after the phone call, but neither of us received any written documents…It is possible, if the material looked like junk mail, that it may have gotten thrown out, as we get huge amounts of junk mail where we live & endless solicitations from banks & others trying to sell us insurance…

I was very busy in 2004, as I had several very large oil paintings in a gallery in Hazelton lanes that year & for a few years that followed, & was very busy both before 2004, creating the collection, during 2004, hanging & administering informations & welcoming collectors while I was there in person, & afterwards, trying to create new works…

All to say that TD Visa caught me off guard…You don’t expect to be taken advantage of by the bank where you safekeep your money…A slight conflict…

The product was sold using tie-in selling…When you activate your credit card is when they solicit you for the insurance…Tie-in selling has been banned here, but it still seems to be happening…Not sure why…

Negative Option Billing: Balance protection insurance/credit protection insurance is sold over the phone, & if you say yes, you are officially signed up…When they send you written documentation (if you get it), you can read the fine print, find out that you are excluded, & somehow call them back to cancel in time…This is called negative option billing…Also now banned here, but seems to still be in operation…

The Insurance Act states that a contract can be voided if the insurer willfully omitted a material fact about the insurance policy, a form of fraud…If a material fact, like the fact that self-employed people are excluded from making a claim, is omitted at the point of sale, the over the phone conversation, then the contract can be rescinded & all financials returned to the original state prior to the contract existing…A lawyer told us this is called “Void Abinitio” or void from the beginning…

This is my main point…Actually, I have gone through all the other points already with TD, so this is possibly my most important point…

The Class Action suits in the States & England were based on that point exactly…

That credit card protection insurance was missold to the self-employed, the disabled, the retired, seasonal or part-time workers, the unemployed, & those not employed when they said yes over the phone…

This is the main & salient point that has already gotten the British to ban payment protection insurance in its entirety as a product & a recent decision was to refund ALL monies to ANYBODY who had owned PPI (as the British call it), instead of just refunding to those who had complained…

The Americans have already refunded millions of dollars on Class Action decisions, where the sole argument was that people who could never make a claim were sold this insurance…

When I first asked three months ago how TD Visa could have sold me credit card insurance since it clearly states on all my financials that I am a self-employed visual artist, including the credit cardholder’s agreement, the lady on the phone said: “Well, you could die”…

But that is not true actually…The death clause is useless, because credit card law states that relatives that succeed me are under no obligation to pay my credit card debts anyways…So, the death clause is useless as an excuse that this insurance could ever be valid to a self-employed person or any of the other excluded categories…

Some statistics: 70% of people who have credit insurance do not know they even have it…It is buried at the bottom of credit card statements, does not appear when you don’t carry a balance, & looks like a bank fee like an annual credit card fee charge or something else official…On Td Visa it appears as “Balance Protection (Incl tax) …We only caught it because we hadn’t used the card in two years, were carrying a balance, & it was the only charge that appeared, all by itself…

The extent of the damage was made clear when I asked TD for a summary total: $2,684.70 plus interest…

Shocking, I know…When I went online to see if anyone else had been this stupid, I found so many others, I was overwhelmed, it was systemic…

I have filed official complaints with the FCAC, the FSCO, the OLHI, The Minister of Finance, the OBSI, as well as numerous emails to TD Bank, & to the underwriter ABLAC/Assurant Solutions…

I have received three letters…All three letters essentially stated the same thing…That TD did nothing wrong…That TD did exactly what it always does when it sells credit protection insurance…That all was done correctly…

Of course, as leading experts know & have stated widely, credit protection insurance is a missold product…

But back to little me…

My main case is that had someone told me over the phone that self-employed people do not qualify to make a claim for job loss , I would not have said yes…

The letters I got said that the exclusions were in the written documents sent to me later…

A recent case of another self-employed person who was sold this stated that he also was not told that self-employed people were excluded in the over the phone conversation, & that though it was in the fine print of the documentation, that it was not prominent enough in the phone conversation, as the gentleman would not have said yes to the policy had he known he was excluded…The fine print exclusions mentioned in the documentation were not considered sufficient to the consumer…(As it happens, insurers know that statistically, the insured do not read the written documentation after they have been sold a policy- this is not right nor wrong, this is merely a known statistic that insurers can prey upon by selling something with little info over the phone, then sending the exclusions later in the mail…More often than not, statistically, the person does not know of the exclusions, based on human nature behaviour that has been observed by insurance companies…)

The predatory & cooercive nature of the tie-in sale with the credit card activation makes consumers more likely to say yes, when they usually would say no…Why? Because they want their credit card activated…They figure psychologically that saying yes to a small thing will help them to get the card in hand…

Turns out it was not a small thing… Regular people have lost thousands like me…A lady contacted me to thank me for writing about this on my blog, & told me she found this after reading my words, on her son’s credit card…She fired off to the bank in a fury & said she wanted to make a claim on his behalf…She said her husband & her were unemployed, had lost their jobs, & their son was a university student…Based on the fact that her son was a student & was unable to ever make a claim based on his lack of a job, she got him his money back…Her fury probably helped too…

Mine is the same case…Self-employed since 1993, could never claim job loss on credit card insurance…I should get a refund…But so far, just runaround, delays & rude brick walls…

Lastly, I have just been told that TD bank opted to be excluded from OBSI’s service, effective Nov. 1st, 2011…

After Nov. 1st, 2011, complaints about TD Bank are to be held by ADr Chambers, a private arbitrator…

But OBSI has a mandate to not only be able to resolve individual claims, but to compel banks to make refunds to all customers who have been wronged…Like a class action, but not in the courts…

ADR Chambers does not have that frame of reference…I have complained to the Minster of Finance on the Federal level about this, on OBSI’s request actually…

OBSI is not happy about the exclusion either…RBC got an exclusion two years ago & ADR Chambers has been handling their disputes privately…

TD, in the National Post was quoted as saying they wanted to move to ADR Chambers because too many cases were being resolved in favour of the clients by OBSI…(Ombudsman for Banking Services & Investments…)

I am not sure how to direct you to proceed if you decide to give it a go…I’d understand if you didn’t…It’s been a trial of my own patience…Thank goodness, Joseph, my husband, likes to hang out at this nearby bar the Crown & Dragon…(It’s across from the Canadian Tire at Yonge & Davenport)…He has two friends there, one a lawyer for corporate, the other a lawyer who defends employees…They have been giving him “over a few beers” legal advice…The employee defender lawyer offered to write a letter on his law firm letterhead just to scare TD…he also offered to help us pro bono if it comes to that…I’m not big on accepting free things, preferring to be the giver, but it is an outside thought if all else fails…

If you do choose to help as best you can, & we succeed, I am not sure how I will be able to thank you- my mum is a wine agent & sometimes I say thank you in wine, others are art people so I find a solid work that they may like…Thank yous aside, getting a refund is also a matter of principle…The banks have been doing something very very wrong & should be punished…

Of course, none of the people who I have had answers from are actually certified insurance agents- which makes it even more ridiculous that they are sending me letters saying that they have followed fair business practice…How would they even know? A Bank cannot sell insurance on a TD Visa card & then state that they followed all the rules of selling insurance since they have not even taken the courses…

The Td Insurance people I have dealt with are all customer service or phone salespeople…Uncertified again…But willing to state that all laws were followed…Though so so many laws have been broken…

The salient point is that credit insurance costs 2 million a year to administer & brings in 20 million a year in revenue…That is what they see…

TD Bank links employee salaries with the bank’s performance…The employees actually had a strike about that…What it means is that the employees are compelled to make bad sales in the hopes of keeping their salaries at normal wages…The pressure to sell must be unbelievable…

Thanks for listening,

Sari Grove

About GroveCanada

Artist Statement: I like to push...Push the fold...Innovate...Figure out how to do something then figure out how to do it even better...I get bored once I accomplish something...I can’t seem to make multiples...Once it is done, it is done ; I am not going to make another one...This can hurt profitability...But I feel the paradigm of repetitive production is obsolete...I see a future where pure intellectual innovation will be rewarded without the need to commercialize it somehow...I wonder about the Star Trek idea of a new culture where money is not the driving force...I live that future already... Bio: Sari is an optimist by nature, someone who always sees the sunny side of things, even if there is no sunny side really...She grew up with two wonderful parents & a great brother...Later she married the very best guy in the world, another artist named Joseph Grove...She likes art because it is for her a happy place to be...A place where joy can reside...So she decided to make art herself because that was the nicest thing she thought she could do for people’s lives...I’d tell you more about angst or strife or misery or struggling, but really, that was not the case...But perhaps, because I am Sari ; I am writing this, my perception is warped by my extreme positivity...But, to tell you the truth, life has been good... p.s.You can read more about my credentials on my main website at http://www.grovecanada.ca ...But I have left a few things out, credential-wise... My feeling is:"By their fruits, ye shall know them" which is from the New Testament, Book of Mathew(7, 16-20)... So read my books ; see if the fruit tastes good to you...I feel those are better credentials than telling you something on a resume... p.p.s. I am a Christian...Whatever that word means to you...
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

1 Response to Fighting back for what is right: Occupy Bay street is an online fight

  1. Pingback: Credit Card Insurance Claim Back : Insurance Credit Blog| Free Online Tips and Resources

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s